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Champagne SS decals, the scam. "Sham Pain Ruin"


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  • Field Marshall
Lenny

I knew about the scam discovery, only just got around to catching up with all the forum posts about it. Eye opening to say the least.

I used to collect German Helmets, glad I don't anymore... ?

The whole story is fascinating, and is a worthy read for any Militaria collector. It's got more turns than a Poirot episode. You'll learn lessons about con men, fakers, dealers and authors placed on pedestals, only to be spectacularly knocked off, forum members making reasoned arguments only to be ridiculed, later to be proven correct, the story of a rogue who's been getting away with it for years, who's still at it, a few old names who I'd thought were out of the hobby.... Basically this one subject should be essential reading for ALL collectors. It goes right to the core of this amazing, but corrupt hobby.

Here are the relevant threads. If you fancy an education, take the time to read these, and all the linked threads. It'll take you a while but you will learn more about this hobby than from anything else... :(

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=834155

http://www.ghw2.com/topic/51770-champagne-decal-commentary/

http://www.ghw2.com/topic/49110-champagne-decals/

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56013&highlight=eric+dolin

http://germanhelmetcollectors.com/id4.html

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No offence to anyone, but I see new collectors immediately wanting SS, FJ and cammo helmets. That's a jobby load of misery awaiting the unwary right there... Everybody gets burned, but do the knowledg

I was on WRF when Doug B was working with XRF technology, for those of you who dont know, this entails very close forensic examination of items and was used to Flouresce the colours and metallic eleme

I knew about the scam discovery, only just got around to catching up with all the forum posts about it. Eye opening to say the least. I used to collect German Helmets, glad I don't anymore... ?

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  • Lenny pinned this topic
HetzersGonnaHetz

As I understand it, were top experts, who people come to for advice, selling them fake SS helmets and telling them they were real when in actual fact they had done the decal themselves, and people believed them because they were site admins (who had banded together to make a hella load of money.)

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HetzersGonnaHetz

Well then, that's my chances of ever owning an original, as 9 out of 10 of the already impossible to find 'real' SS helmets are fakes sold off by these wotsits, furious ?

Edited by HetzersGonnaHetz
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  • Field Marshall
Lenny

There are plenty of real helmets about, just need to do due diligence. The piont is, many new helmet collectors want SS, cammo or FJ. These should be avoided until they are much more experienced... Even then, approach with extreme caution.

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Davejb

I was on WRF when Doug B was working with XRF technology, for those of you who dont know, this entails very close forensic examination of items and was used to Flouresce the colours and metallic elements in the decals, thereby giving some indication of authenticity. He was also working on micro examination of the decals and proved ,in a number of instances, what was real and what was fake. This obviously led to a huge amount of critisism , re COAs ,reputations etc, in particular this Champagne Decal was proved to be a fake. Doug was also able to easily tell the difference, re decals that had been "painted" or even finely ink jetted, but XRF was,nt all it was made up to be, mistakes were made but in the main it helped to debunk some decals, However Doug,s continued quest into these fake SS decals paid off, and it has caused many "solid" dealers of SS helmets to back pedal, including KH, Because of dealers lifetime guarantees on their helmets, many will be taking out loans to repay buyers back many thousands of pounds. They say that no-one knows it all but with people like DougB around you have someone who can truly help potential buyers to get what they are paying for. As a matter of fact, if anyone has ever seen his collection you will see that every single helmet he owns is the real deal, and I think I,m right in saying that he found a couple in his collection he was,nt happy with and got refunds. This debunking has resulted in many authors of printed works on SS helmets, having to think again, including KH. To me this just goes to prove that no matter how good you are at collecting, you can still get burned by the fakers out there. Now you see why so many Camo,s are in doubt as well, paint a decent helmet 40 odd years ago, and theres plenty out there that will swear its real until its thouroughly examined and literally pulled apart. Thats one of the reasons I dont get involved with SS collecting, its a minefield and one I,m not confident in walking on, yes they are every helmet collectors dream helmet, but as with everything else you need 100% provenance especially with these

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HetzersGonnaHetz

Very good point Dave, and sadly that is very true. I wonder if William Kramer will have any problems as he deals with a lifetime guarantee. I'd only ever want one SS helmet, but this has put me off totally, as you can only tell if the decal is real if you have it in hand for a bit.

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  • Field Marshall
Lenny

KH, search SS Steel, if you want a book on SS helmets, that's the one. Well apart from the part where he authenticates the champagne ruins decal. ;)

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Davejb

Hetz, you have a lifetime to get one, dont try to jump the gun, you really have to know your decals when dealing with SS, dont forget that handfuls of real SS decals were grabbed up by troops during the war at various factories in Germany, and post war many were added to ordinary WH helmets and some are still added now, albeit its really difficult to get the adhesion of the decal right and tearing can and probably will occur. I,ve only had one SS helmet in all my years of collecting and I was about 10-11 years old and did,nt even consider the potential worth of it, there were helmets of every description just lying in peoples sheds, attics and in junk shops. we used to play war and wore them every day, literally every kid had a helmet of some description, FJs , original camos,SS, WW1 helmets, Picklehaubs, Transistional,s , mine was an Applegreen M35 DD SS along with a couple of WH helmets and loads of British MK11s, I wish I had kept it but like everything else it just got sold off over the years and not for a great price either.

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HetzersGonnaHetz

My dad remembers having a mate who's dad had a wall full of WW1/2 knives and daggers, but did't really think much of it at the time!

I'll get a copy of SS Steel, just steer clear of Champagne decals and any mention of em. But first I need to get a copy of each volume of For Fuhrer and Fatherland, Civil and Military.  Who's ED by the way? 

Is SS Steel a good place to buy SS/WH helmets  from?

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Davejb

SS Steel is a pretty good reference book, minus the CD, you will see what types of decals were used on SS helmets, how to ID the decals, their dimensions, shape, the breaks in the shields, the variations of SS decals, but If you want to purchase a helmet I dont think you will get one via the book. KH is a dealer in America, He buys and sells SS helmets, but I think you really need to think re buying one at the moment. They are extremely expensive and KH sells the more pristine types, therefore you will be paying a high premium, plus shipping and insurance costs, for a decent one you,ll be paying in excess of £5k especially from KH, there are cheaper ones around but you really need to know your onions

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  • Major General
Bil4338
1 hour ago, HetzersGonnaHetz said:

At the moment it is best for me to get the whole SS thing outta my head, stick to my awards and keep it simple for now.

Your rootin tootin right on that one my son!

no-one in their right mind would even contemplate buying any SS helmet without doing a sh*tload of homework first.my one and only DD SS lid came from a trusted dealer who got it from someone who liberated it from a woodshed.its not pristine, but honest and shows its time in said shed.great price too, that was back in the day, quite a difference from nowadays.these days are long gone now, new collectors like you are walking into a minefield.keep your cash for something more easily determined is my sage advice.holy f*ck, when I was your age I could barely afford an original breast eagle!! 9_9

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HetzersGonnaHetz

Sadly so, but im here and you guys teach me and point me in the right direction of dealers and books so im very lucky, its the next generation of collectors wholl get it bad...... because ill have to teach em! hahaha :D 

And im selling a few pieces, one of which is going to PmMeYourCats whos off on one of his adventures, but less about that, as this is not on topic :D 

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  • Major General
Bil4338
17 hours ago, Lenny said:

I knew about the scam discovery, only just got around to catching up with all the forum posts about it. Eye opening to say the least.

I used to collect German Helmets, glad I don't anymore... ?

The whole story is fascinating, and is a worthy read for any Militaria collector. It's got more turns than a Poirot episode. You'll learn lessons about con men, fakers, dealers and authors placed on pedestals, only to be spectacularly knocked off, forum members making reasoned arguments only to be ridiculed, later to be proven correct, the story of a rogue who's been getting away with it for years, who's still at it, a few old names who I'd thought were out of the hobby.... Basically this one subject should be essential reading for ALL collectors. It goes right to the core of this amazing, but corrupt hobby.

Here are the relevant threads. If you fancy an education, take the time to read these, and all the linked threads. It'll take you a while but you will learn more about this hobby than from anything else... :(

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=834155

http://www.ghw2.com/topic/51770-champagne-decal-commentary/

http://www.ghw2.com/topic/49110-champagne-decals/

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56013&highlight=eric+dolin

http://germanhelmetcollectors.com/id4.html

...helmets for the DISCRIMINATING collector!!! Says something IMO!

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  • Field Marshall
Lenny

No offence to anyone, but I see new collectors immediately wanting SS, FJ and cammo helmets. That's a jobby load of misery awaiting the unwary right there... Everybody gets burned, but do the knowledge first, start with cheaper helmets and work your way up. Trust me, been there, done that, got burned big time nearly 20 years ago, turned me away from collecting for years.... :(

If you want to know who ED is, the clue is right in front of your eyes... ;)

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HetzersGonnaHetz
7 hours ago, Lenny said:

If you want to know who ED is, the clue is right in front of your eyes... ;)

Well I must be blind as a bat then! hahahaha ?

 

I mean it's expected that new collectors want SS/FJ helmets, don't we all dream about them, all of us would love one! But I'm not going to get a German helmet just yet me thinks, build up a substantial awards collection over a few years, then go for one

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Manu Della Valle

Jesus Christ,
apart from the fact that I don't collect WSS stuff the mere thought that there are all these strange things around makes me happy to own just a handful of certified helmets that surely won't set the Thames on fire but that will let me sleep nice and tight at least!

Edited by Manu Della Valle
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Manu Della Valle

Who the hell is KH?I know of many turrd-pushing, downright bent crooks around lile Gerard "God Bless" Stezelberger and Bull Shi(a)t of Relic Hunter's and The Ruptured Duck's fame respectively, but I cannot make out who KH is?Has he got a name?That would be an important thing to know...just in case!
Cheers
Manu

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dagodave

I have one of these helmets I purchased it from a very well know dealer (not here) with a guarantee for life. I have dealt with this man on many occasions and had been satisfied. When I received the helmet in which I paid a considerable sum I questioned the decal. I was told if it's ever proven to be a fake decal I would be compensated. During the time all this information was learned of I had contacted the dealer and was refused a refund. Stating some say it real some fake. Never buying another item from him again

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