Manu Della Valle Posted September 18, 2016 Share Posted September 18, 2016 @Lenny...no story about this one!Found in the States a few years ago!It's one of the ONLY TWO belts and buckles I've bought in my life,I just liked the nice,almost complete light olive paint on the buckle and I 've always had a thing for the type of belt with the leather reinforced end! Cheers Manu 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manu Della Valle Posted September 18, 2016 Author Share Posted September 18, 2016 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Field Marshall Lenny Posted September 18, 2016 Field Marshall Share Posted September 18, 2016 Lovely... ? Purists would say you can't say a buckle is truly tropical unless it has a web tab, although leather tabbed and indeed leather belts were used in Africa. 42 date is pushing it for Africa and this one hasn't seen much, if any use, but gorgeous none the less.. ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manu Della Valle Posted September 18, 2016 Author Share Posted September 18, 2016 I know Lenny...but I never change items around...it's been on the belt since it's been brought to the Sates...I've got "loose" buckles with web tabs but I'd rather leave this one on the belt!I thought that the olive colour was peculiar to "trop" buckles! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Field Marshall Lenny Posted September 18, 2016 Field Marshall Share Posted September 18, 2016 22 minutes ago, Manu Della Valle said: I know Lenny...but I never change items around...it's been on the belt since it's been brought to the Sates...I've got "loose" buckles with web tabs but I'd rather leave this one on the belt!I thought that the olive colour was peculiar to "trop" buckles! Totally right, too many people muck around with stuff. For me, should be exactly as it was in 1945. There are other buckles in that shade that weren't specifically tropical, the light olive colour is generally regarded as early war. Or early steel buckle, 41-42ish. Of course the exception to this is the factory painted tan buckles, which are pretty rare... There is a school of thought that late war web tabs were actually economy measure rather then specifically tropical. As with a lot of things, we can't say anything for definite, as records don't exist or were destroyed. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manu Della Valle Posted September 18, 2016 Author Share Posted September 18, 2016 Thanks for sharing your knowledge @Lenny!As you've said they're all "schools of tought"...leather was widely used in Africa as it was in Europe and,as a matter of fact,webbing was more and more used towards the end of the war when leaher became scarcer,proof to that the two 1944-dated spade carriers I've posted in another thread,made of presstoff and with their leather fittings made of recycled leather! Cheers Manu 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regiment739 Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 I must agree with Lenny for me this is a put together, again not issued together, the wear on the buckle does not match the belt, both very nice though 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAK D Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 (edited) Hi @Manu Della Valle, I really like both items, but the belt is a true DAK early issue dating from late 1940, or early 1941 and the buckle is from 1942 and it has probably been added to the belt post war. D Edited September 20, 2016 by DAK D 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manu Della Valle Posted September 20, 2016 Author Share Posted September 20, 2016 2 minutes ago, DAK D said: Hi @Manu Della Valle, I really like both items, but the belt is a true DAK early issue dating from late 1940, or early 1941 and the buckle is from 1942 and has probably been added to the belt post war. D I don't think it's been added post-War because the former owner got it from a Vet estate and knowing him I don't think he's tampered with it!It could well be that the soldier (either the German or the GI) put another buckle on it or that the vet picked up a belt AND a buckle....the prongs left their marks on the web tab and they're not recent!Seen in the flesh the belt shows less wear than in the pictures and the web tab would be better called discoloured than faded or worn. Anyway...all in all I think that it's a nice set but as with all things you don't find yourself it's always a matter of faith!I know the guy who gave me the set and just like me, @Lenny and many others doesn't like to tamper with items!Me,even if I own several buckles with web tabs I'll leave this set alone! As a side note,I own a second,I DENTICAL set,i.e. web belt,buckle with LEATHER tab made by R.S. & S. COMING FRPOM SICILY whose buckle hasn't been added post-War for sure! Further...what about the web belts with leather tabs?A web item doesn't necessarily means "Africa" and a leather item shouldn't be ruled out in the first place as far as its use in Africa would be concerned! Saying that a belt and buckle hasn't been issued together would be an assumption but not necessarily the truth,in fact after the uniform "bonanza" of the first years later in the War new recruits started being issued with a mix of new and worn items coming from Bekleidungskammern,either taken from casualties and from the lots of items intended for barracks duties! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAK D Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 21 minutes ago, Manu Della Valle said: I don't think it's been added post-War because the former owner got it from a Vet estate and knowing him I don't think he's tampered with it!It could well be that the soldier (either the German or the GI) put another buckle on it or that the vet picked up a belt AND a buckle....the prongs left their marks on the web tab and they're not recent!Seen in the flesh the belt shows less wear than in the pictures and the web tab would be better called discoloured than faded or worn. Anyway...all in all I think that it's a nice set but as with all things you don't find yourself it's always a matter of faith!I know the guy who gave me the set and just like me, @Lenny and many others doesn't like to tamper with items!Me,even if I own several buckles with web tabs I'll leave this set alone! As a side note,I own a second,I DENTICAL set,i.e. web belt,buckle with LEATHER tab made by R.S. & S. COMING FRPOM SICILY whose buckle hasn't been added post-War for sure! Further...what about the web belts with leather tabs?A web item doesn't necessarily means "Africa" and a leather item shouldn't be ruled out in the first place as far as its use in Africa would be concerned! Saying that a belt and buckle hasn't been issued together would be an assumption but not necessarily the truth,in fact after the uniform "bonanza" of the first years later in the War new recruits started being issued with a mix of new and worn items coming from Bekleidungskammern,either taken from casualties and from the lots of items intended for barracks duties! @Manu Della Valle, I stated the buckle had probably been added post war, as the belt was made in late 1940 or early 1941 and all the early stock of tropical uniform items and equipment would have gone to Tripoli in early 1941 with the Afrika Korps. There were still 1940 dated items being issued in Egypt in 1942, so it is not impossible it's just unlikely. I am not the only one here that believes these items were not a true set, but it's your belt set and you are entitled to your own opinion. D 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manu Della Valle Posted September 20, 2016 Author Share Posted September 20, 2016 Dermot, were you in Tripoli in 1941 or in Egypt in 1942 when they issued a 1937-dated mess tin to an ersatz "Afrikaner"?I don't think so!I don't think it's not a true set either but you cannot say anything definite!I am not the one who's personally found it but I believe the man who gave me the set to be a guy who doesn't put things together,PERIOD!NOBODY here (and that includes you,me,@Lenny and the other 777 members) can be 100% sure about this set but,as I've said above,it's a matter of faith! I couldn't care less about what peple think...I'm posting my items to share them and certainly not to start pointless debates...there's the WAF for that! This things that leather was a no-no on Items intended for African use is an urban legend and, as far as being positive as to when what has been sent where is concerned, have you got the official Merkblatte?Only with those papers one can be 100% sure about what was sent where and when! Only because it's my belt it doesn't mean that I've got to convince myself of God-knows-what...none of us has spent his day-to-day life with this belt! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manu Della Valle Posted September 20, 2016 Author Share Posted September 20, 2016 This set is 100% matching,1939-dated and LBA(S) stamped including the ammo puches (not shown) but the bayonet is 1942-dated......food for thought!I've got at least twelve 1939-dated bayonets but I wouldn't consider for a second swapping the 1942-dated one original to the set for a 1939-dated one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manu Della Valle Posted September 20, 2016 Author Share Posted September 20, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, DAK D said: the belt is a true DAK early issue dating from late 1940, or early 1941 and the buckle is from 1942 and it has probably been added to the belt post war. D Could you please tell me exactly WHEN post-War?On July 6th 1945 or October 23rd 1965? It surely couldn't have been added on March 6th 1943 or september 2nd 1944,could it? If you can't (and you CAN' T !)then your 1979= my 1943! Edited September 20, 2016 by Manu Della Valle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAK D Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 (edited) 21 hours ago, Manu Della Valle said: Dermot, were you in Tripoli in 1941 or in Egypt in 1942 when they issued a 1937-dated mess tin to an ersatz "Afrikaner"?I don't think so!I don't think it's not a true set either but you cannot say anything definite!I am not the one who's personally found it but I believe the man who gave me the set to be a guy who doesn't put things together,PERIOD!NOBODY here (and that includes you,me,@Lenny and the other 777 members) can be 100% sure about this set but,as I've said above,it's a matter of faith! I couldn't care less about what peple think...I'm posting my items to share them and certainly not to start pointless debates...there's the WAF for that! This things that leather was a no-no on Items intended for African use is an urban legend and, as far as being positive as to when what has been sent where is concerned, have you got the official Merkblatte?Only with those papers one can be 100% sure about what was sent where and when! Only because it's my belt it doesn't mean that I've got to convince myself of God-knows-what...none of us has spent his day-to-day life with this belt! @Manu Della Valle "I really like both items, but the belt is a true DAK early issue dating from late 1940, or early 1941 and the buckle is from 1942 and has probably been added to the belt post war". I never said the set was definitley put together post war I used the word probably and to be honest I have no desire to argue with you, or have have a pointless debate over a tropical belt and buckle set that already said I really liked. I know the Germans used leather and webbing items in North Africa and I can debunk the urban legend with a tropical belt in my collection that is dated "1940" on the leather ajustment tab. Are you going to challenge regiment739 for his post about your tropical belt set then? D Edited September 21, 2016 by DAK D 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Field Marshall Lenny Posted September 20, 2016 Field Marshall Share Posted September 20, 2016 6 hours ago, Manu Della Valle said: This things that leather was a no-no on Items intended for African use is an urban legend and, as far as being positive as to when what has been sent where is concerned, have you got the official That's not what anyone is saying, what is said is that amongst buckle collectors, the only sure fire tropical buckle is one with a web tab. Yes leather tabbed buckles were used in Africa, but there's no way to know that unless a genuine vet bringback from Africa. Whereas, a web tabbed buckle is always a tropical buckle, not necessarily Africa but always a tropical, or if you go by a certain school of thought, late war ersatz. The other thing buckle collectors like to see is consistent wear between belt and buckle, with matching degrees of wear. Not always accurate, and items were upgraded, damaged, replaced war time, but it's a good rule of thumb. Certain belt sets have that one looker thing about them.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manu Della Valle Posted September 21, 2016 Author Share Posted September 21, 2016 (edited) 7 hours ago, DAK D said: @Manu Della Valle "I really like both items, but the belt is a true DAK early issue dating from late 1940, or early 1941 and the buckle is from 1942 and has probably been added to the belt post war". I never said the set was definitley put together post war I used the word probably and to be honest I have no desire to argue with you, or have have a pointless debate over a tropical belt and buckle set that already said I really liked. I know the Germans used leather and webbing items in North Africa and I can debunk the urban legend with a tropical belt in my collection that is dated "1940" on the leather ajustment tab. Are you going to challange regiment739 for his post about your tropical belt set then? D You cannot say with certainty if the belt had been made in late 1940 or early 1941 because it's not a Focke Wulf 190D-9 or even a R56 Mini Cooper, made from....to....!It could have been made anytime between 1940 to 1945 as far as we know because I find it unlikely that the WaA Officers would have made a tour of the Austrian Alps to make sure that they stopped adding leather tips after December 31st 1941!In fact I own an M42 tunic made in late 1944...somebody surely forgot to tell the ones who made it that the new M44 was all the rage and that M42 and M43 tunics and trousers would have remained unsold in the Wehrmacht's boutiques! Further,like in any warehouse the old saying "First in,last out" is always just around the corner;something made in 1941 could have been submerged by stuff and only resurface one year later! I'm not going to challenge anybody and to be perfectly honest the fact that Ben Evans is a moderator over at Warelics means little to me,he may be a moderator and have studied buckles for the best part of the last 50 years but I doubt he knows the day-to-day story of each and every buckle made in Third Reich Germany and as far as "challenging" is concerned let me teach you an old Italian saying that goes "Nessuno nasce imparato" and that roughly translates into "No one is born knowing everything" and knowledge hasn't copyrights!I don't know how old are you but if you think that at 53 I'm going to loose my time arguing about nothing,well...you'd better reconsider! In fact this will be my last thread...its's been nice for a while but at this point I think I really have to copy and paste a PM I've got this very afternoon because I think that it speaks volumes: "This is why I quite posting here Manu due to a lack of interest and or honest replies that would generate an informative discussion much like you I do not show my collection to brag I was hoping that this forum was a little different and that when I posted an item from my collection it would prompt further discussion on the subject not just nice helmet and or a like I have run into the same wall on all most all the venues I visit so I just gave up...You are a better man than I as you lasted much longer than I but as many forums now a days there is more interest in the Third Reich and its regalia..." This friend is right...posting threads and pictures is often a waste of time because people just seem not to be interested and constructive discusions are as rare as hen's teeth! It won't be a great loss for I'm sure you'll have a lot of people posting their stuff with detailed pictures in no time;I've posted nearly 60 threads and I think that it can be considered a good contribution and a good heritage to the forum! Live Long and Prosper Manu Edited September 21, 2016 by Manu Della Valle 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAK D Posted September 21, 2016 Share Posted September 21, 2016 @Manu Della Valle, There is an excepted timeline in the evolution of Heer tropical belts and buckles and if you took the time to do some research you would see for yourself your belt is an early one. However, you are entitled to your own opinion on any item in your collection and if you are happy that is all that matters. Who is arguing? You are the one having a rant over nothing and you have made yourself look like an angry five year old and not a 53 year old man, so well done Manu. To say you have overreactted to a simple comment is an understatement and I have nothing more to say to you on this matter. Goodbye D 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Field Marshall Lenny Posted September 21, 2016 Field Marshall Share Posted September 21, 2016 13 hours ago, Manu Della Valle said: You cannot say with certainty if the belt had been made in late 1940 or early 1941 because it's not a Focke Wulf 190D-9 or even a R56 Mini Cooper, made from....to....!It could have been made anytime between 1940 to 1945 as far as we know because I find it unlikely that the WaA Officers would have made a tour of the Austrian Alps to make sure that they stopped adding leather tips after December 31st 1941!In fact I own an M42 tunic made in late 1944...somebody surely forgot to tell the ones who made it that the new M44 was all the rage and that M42 and M43 tunics and trousers would have remained unsold in the Wehrmacht's boutiques! Further,like in any warehouse the old saying "First in,last out" is always just around the corner;something made in 1941 could have been submerged by stuff and only resurface one year later! I'm not going to challenge anybody and to be perfectly honest the fact that Ben Evans is a moderator over at Warelics means little to me,he may be a moderator and have studied buckles for the best part of the last 50 years but I doubt he knows the day-to-day story of each and every buckle made in Third Reich Germany and as far as "challenging" is concerned let me teach you an old Italian saying that goes "Nessuno nasce imparato" and that roughly translates into "No one is born knowing everything" and knowledge hasn't copyrights!I don't know how old are you but if you think that at 53 I'm going to loose my time arguing about nothing,well...you'd better reconsider! In fact this will be my last thread...its's been nice for a while but at this point I think I really have to copy and paste a PM I've got this very afternoon because I think that it speaks volumes: "This is why I quite posting here Manu due to a lack of interest and or honest replies that would generate an informative discussion much like you I do not show my collection to brag I was hoping that this forum was a little different and that when I posted an item from my collection it would prompt further discussion on the subject not just nice helmet and or a like I have run into the same wall on all most all the venues I visit so I just gave up...You are a better man than I as you lasted much longer than I but as many forums now a days there is more interest in the Third Reich and its regalia..." This friend is right...posting threads and pictures is often a waste of time because people just seem not to be interested and constructive discusions are as rare as hen's teeth! It won't be a great loss for I'm sure you'll have a lot of people posting their stuff with detailed pictures in no time;I've posted nearly 60 threads and I think that it can be considered a good contribution and a good heritage to the forum! Live Long and Prosper Manu @Manu Della Valle, I'm puzzled why this is turning into a drama. You said yourself that buckles weren't your thing. I'm far from an expert, but I research as much as I can. @DAK D and @regiment739 are both very experienced in these matters and I trust their opinions. They outlined the general history of production, not an exact thing, but there or thereabouts. You don't have to be so defensive about your belt/buckle, it's a nice set, as I said earlier... Quote As with a lot of things, we can't say anything for definite, as records don't exist or were destroyed. As for having a dig at Ben, that's out of order. He spends a lot of time helping out fellow collectors and I've been grateful for his advice over the years. As for this being your last thread, well, that puzzles me even more @Manu Della Valle. Members have enjoyed your contribution and pics. However, to go in the huff because someone has an opinion on a belt/buckle, which you even admit isn't your thing, isn't really on is it? C'monn.... As for your friend, well I'd have more respect if he had actually came to myself or the admin team and explained what he didn't like or was unhappy about. We've even got a feedback forum FFS... To slip out the back door moaning about how jobby the place is, without mentioning to those that could do something about it says more about that person than it does about this forum I'm afraid. On that point about the forum being jobby, I have to disagree, as you'd expect. This forum is what it's members make it. If you don't come to me and tell me things, how am I meant to know you don't like it? Also, all forums have been quieter since the advent of social media, it's just how it is, the majority of people seem to like the convenience of Facebook, and that's fine... Possibly you weren't a member when the discussion about bringing the web forum back was discussed, I agreed to do it because members asked. I seriously had to think long and hard about it, as it's me who funds it, maintains it and keeps the lights on. I'm wondering if you actually realise just how much work is involved. Time I should be spending on my day job, should be spending on my family, cash I should be sending on my kids or even my collection. Some days I bloody wonder why I bother.... If you're leaving that's fine, I'll delete your profile and sales adverts... 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Rat Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 Hello to you all, Sorry to see it's all got out of hand, comments are there for all of us to make / add and we have to take whatever people express., although some on here can be pretty critical and offensive...and really piss others off .....!!! I should know - I am the only one on MCN - with a bloody -----WARNING POINT---???? Well I ask you Dak stay with us you are an old friend and have a lot of knowledge. I hope you can all resolve this together and we can all be -Friendly -as much as we are able. Best Wishes to you ALL.......Desert Rat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Auld Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 (edited) Oh, this was not new then! He has a history of being a bit unreceptive to others opinion backed by knowledge, I was starting to think it was just me! It must just be the money and being able to buy whatever is fashionable! Stick to Ferraries! Shame he has driven off the people that actually know what they are talking about. Edited October 1, 2020 by Richard Auld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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