Funksammler Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 The "Festungsantenna neuer Art" was a special antenna system for use in concrete bunkers. The iron rebars and roof beams turned any reenforced bunker into a Faraday cage, so no radio signals can come in or out a bunker without special antenna arrangements. The "Festungsantenne" consists of the antenna itself, which could be pushed through a tube in the roof of the bunker from the antenna niche inside. The antenna in the niche was connected to radio in the interior of the bunker by a coax cable between and two connection boxes: The main components of the system include the antenna base on which three antenna rods were placed, wooden poles to push the antenna up through the roof, a connection box placed in the antenna niche to connect the HF cable to the antenna (FAD: Funk Außenanschluß Dose), interconnecting coax cable, radio connection box (FID: Funk Innenanschluß Dose). A support for the antenna rods and a text plate complete the installation: The antenna base itself sits on the guide. The base and guide have small rollers which allows the antenna to move smoothly through the tube in the roof. The wheels on the antenna base also serve to keep the antenna folded while inside the tube, when the top of the antenna base is pushed out of the top of the tube, the antenna rods will spread out automatically: A close up of the spreading mechanism of the antenna base: The three two-piece whip antennas (which I am missing unfortunately) allowed for a short or a long antenna, dependent on the frequency of the radio used (photo from an old Ebay auction): The antenna base was supported by wooden rods. Either telephone wire poles (Baustangen) or lineman's poles (Drahtgabelstangen) were used for this purpose, I am showing two "Baustangen" with the antenna: The antenna was pushed up using the telephone pole after which a second pole was connected underneath. The bottom pole was rested in a support at the base of the antenna niche (the "Antennenstütze"): When the antenna was not in use, the antenna poles were stored in one side of the antenna niche, indicated by an instruction plate: A long flexible coax cable is attached to the antenna base, ending in a bakelite coaxial connector: The connector connects into the Außenanschlußdose mounted in the antenna niche: An armoured coaxial cable runs from the Außenanschlußdose to the Innenanschlußdose inside the interior of the bunker. Only specific lengths of cables could be used (15, 22,5 or 30 Meters). That is why you sometimes see pictures of a cable running in zig-zags along the interior wall of a bunker, this was to deal with any overlength of the antenna cable. These precise lengths were needed to ensure that a standing wave would occur in the antenna feed when using the Torn.Fu.d2. This was not so much an issue for the higher VHF frequency Feldfunksprechers but it did require another trick when lower frequency HF sets were used. The cable led to the Innenanschlußdose inside the bunker to which the actual radio was connected: The Innenanschlußdose is a heavy cast iron box in which two different contact units could be fitted. The contact units connect to coaxial cable via the connectors in the top section of the box: The round "carousel" under the contact plate allows a pin to be fitted in three different positions dependent on the length of the coax cable (15, 22,5 or 30 meters). The two different inserts are a simple connection plate for VHF radios (Torn.Fu.d2, Feldfunksprechers, Festungsnotsender etc.) and a more complex antenna tuner for shortwave radios (Torn.Fu.b1 or Torn.Fu.f): The backside shows the antenna contacts which engage with the contacts in the FID: Now the reason for the pin on the "carousel" in the FID becomes apparent, as the shortwave tuning unit also has to be set to the correct coax cable length. In this case it has been set to "1" (for a 15 meter coax cable length), only one guide hole is open corresponding to the pin in the FID. If the tuning unit is not set correctly, it will not fit into the box. Here is the FID with the VHF and shortwave unit fitted respectively: The unit not in use was stored into the storage box which was kept in a cupboard inside the bunker (the "Funkgeräteschrank"). This also stored the radio itself when not in use and contained manuals, spare batteries, connection cables etc. A shield on the FID points the user towards the manual: So when the Festungsantenne was used with a VHF radio, no additional antenna tuning was required, but when using the HF Torn.Fu.b1 or Torn.Fu.f, the antenna had to be tuned to the specific frequency used by turning the tuning control for maximum antenna current on the instrument. Even with the lid of the FID closed, the antenna current instrument could be observed through a window in the lid. Finally, some more constructional details of the complete antenna showing the complete path from the radio to the antenna: regards, Funksammler 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriegsfunker Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 Spectacular. Your setup is more complete than Arthur Bower's. How did you find these crazy rare pieces? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
val Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 Just outstanding!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funksammler Posted March 3, 2019 Author Share Posted March 3, 2019 Arthur borrowed the FID from a Dutch bunker collector to take the pictures, it does not reside in his collection. I have been collecting and restoring the antenna parts over many years, it is probably one of the most complete examples remaining in the world today. I am planning to build an antenna niche/radio position of the correct dimensions to demo the complete system, still need to go and measure it up in a local bunker. The challenge will be to find space for it in my overcrowded room. I guess the missing whip antenna will not such a miss, as it would be impossible to display indoors anyway due to the height..... regards, Funksammler 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tornfuté Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 Yes fantastic , well illustrated and described . I just wonder about this the antenna well is protected outside the bunker by a plate , otherwise sand or rain will enter the well . Is it possible to remove it with the telephones poles? When you push the antenna from’ inside , i guess there is a stop device otherwise the antenna will jump out of the well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funksammler Posted March 3, 2019 Author Share Posted March 3, 2019 22 minutes ago, tornfuté said: Yes fantastic , well illustrated and described . I just wonder about this the antenna well is protected outside the bunker by a plate , otherwise sand or rain will enter the well . Is it possible to remove it with the telephones poles? When you push the antenna from’ inside , i guess there is a stop device otherwise the antenna will jump out of the well. You can see some Festungsantenne hardware on this website: http://www.atlantikwall.info/aw/bilderologie/antennen.htm It shows the heavy covers still in place on one of the photographs. They are fitted over the end of the tube and turned a quarter of a turn to lock them in place. So it was essential to remove the covers before anticipated use, I guess somebody was tasked to remove the covers when the alarm was given. From the construction drawings, there seems to be a ridge near the top on the inside of the tube. When the antenna is rolled through the tube, this ridge must give a good indication that the antenna is near the end of the tube when the wheels run through it; if the ridge actually stops the antenna from going any further, I don't know. The length of the poles and the position of the "Antennestütze" was set so that the top of the antenna base was just outside the tube. If the whip antenna's got shot off, somebody either had the break cover and replace them on top of the bunker, or had to retract the antenna and push the repaired assembly back up... Note that the antenna niche was actually in the entrance "hallway" of the bunker, so not the most secure area. If the bunker was under close attack form the rear, operating the Festungsantenne must have been a pretty hazardous job. regards, Funksammler 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tornfuté Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 we have to identify if the antenna well is in cement or with a steel tube a good check will be to try an antenna in a genuie bunker , of course not all are fitted with radio but some exist . i must have somewhere a pix showing a rotating cover plate , there is also one for the optic well.If the telephone line is cutted and whip antenna broken there is also an emergency antenna and in some case they make home made antennas it's a good subject that is not widely described . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tornfuté Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 some bunkers pictures seen on eBay or web. from pix number 1 we can say the top of the well is made of steel 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
val Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 I found this. http://www.bunkervliegtuigarcheo.com/en/nachrichtenstand/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tornfuté Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 Val good description but picture is a 3d picture not real one . FS , is there a difference between telephone poles and festung poles? on the picture we see a telephone pole and an other one different a sharp one that goes in a metal support rest i think it’s difficult to push with the telephone pole sharp side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funksammler Posted March 4, 2019 Author Share Posted March 4, 2019 Even though the manual mentions "Drahtgabelstange", the standard 3 piece linesman poles are too thin while the two piece linesman pole is too large. The "Bausstangen", even though they are pointy, fit snugly and securely into the antenna support. My pictures shows one of the "Baustangen" with its point inserted into the base. Even though my instruction plate was in very poor condition and was poorly overpainted , the original text clearly mentioned "Baustange". (I am not sure why they used "Stange" instead of the plural "Stangen", must be old German...). There is a hole in the side of the antenna base for a spring fastener, but it does not fit any of the poles I have. I suspect there must have been a slightly different versions of the antenna guide suitable for the 3-piece linesman pole, the manual mentions one with a bayonet-lock for the 3-piece linesman poles which is clearly different from the one I have. Perhaps the 3-piece "Drahtgabelstangen" were no longer issued later in the war or, since the "Baustangen" exist in different lengths (the longer end pieces and the shorter middle pieces), the "Baustangen" offered a more flexible system to achieve different heights required... regards, Funksammler 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funksammler Posted March 4, 2019 Author Share Posted March 4, 2019 6 hours ago, tornfuté said: some bunkers pictures seen on eBay or web. from pix number 1 we can say the top of the well is made of steel It think this is probably not Festungsantenna, I suspect this is more like a periscope shaft. It looks like it had a lid fitted to an axle on the side, which could be rotated (and locked?) from the inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funksammler Posted March 4, 2019 Author Share Posted March 4, 2019 Some more reading: D1790-1 "Merkblatt für den Aufbau von Truppenfunkgerät und Behelfsantennen in ständigen Anlagen der Landesbefestigung". This describes the different setups in some detail: http://www.cdvandt.org/D-1790-1.pdf regards, Funksammler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
val Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 The image Pierre was posting is originally taken from here: http://www.pizzatravel.com.ua/eng/ukraine/5/fortified_bunkers_of_kiev_south Search there image "Holes in the roof of the bunker #179 for antenna and periscope ©Yuriy Buriak" So this is not even a German bunker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Rat Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 Hello to you All, Superb images and a great text regarding the German bunkers and what was involved in the communications side. It's very interesting and something I knew nothing about until now! Many Thanks to......Desert Rat 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
val Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 Remembered i have those links too... http://le-pingouin-62.chez-alice.fr/r504-radio.htm http://www.atlantikwall-research-norway.de/Bunker_electric_equipment.html @Funksammler - does the antenna head opens up? It would be interesting the see it's inside. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Rat Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 Many Thanks Val, I wish I was intelligent as you and Funks etc etc....I used to love the all the comms etc from ww2. Best to you & Thanks....Desert Rat/ Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funksammler Posted March 5, 2019 Author Share Posted March 5, 2019 10 hours ago, val said: @Funksammler - does the antenna head opens up? It would be interesting the see it's inside. I am not going to open up my antenna head! Fortunately I have a detailed construction drawing: As you can see the spreaders are pushed to the outside by a leaf spring connected to the base. regards, Funksammler 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funksammler Posted March 5, 2019 Author Share Posted March 5, 2019 15 hours ago, Funksammler said: Even though the manual mentions "Drahtgabelstange", the standard 3 piece linesman poles are too thin while the two piece linesman pole is too large. The "Bausstangen", even though they are pointy, fit snugly and securely into the antenna support. My pictures shows one of the "Baustangen" with its point inserted into the base. Even though my instruction plate was in very poor condition and was poorly overpainted , the original text clearly mentioned "Baustange". (I am not sure why they used "Stange" instead of the plural "Stangen", must be old German...). There is a hole in the side of the antenna base for a spring fastener, but it does not fit any of the poles I have. I suspect there must have been a slightly different versions of the antenna guide suitable for the 3-piece linesman pole, the manual mentions one with a bayonet-lock for the 3-piece linesman poles which is clearly different from the one I have. Perhaps the 3-piece "Drahtgabelstangen" were no longer issued later in the war or, since the "Baustangen" exist in different lengths (the longer end pieces and the shorter middle pieces), the "Baustangen" offered a more flexible system to achieve different heights required... regards, Funksammler The sketch of the Antenne base (similar to the one in D1790-1) is worth a second look: Looking at this, I am starting to realise that the "Drahtgabelzwischenteil" is actually an adaptor that connects to the bottom of the "Führungsschlitten" (the line pointing to it should have been drawn slightly higher, it is actually pointing at the top of linesman pole). It is clearly drawn protruding further down from the bottom of the antenna guide than on my actual example: This protrusion can also be recognised on the overview sketch: This is now starting to make sense: without adaptor the guide is suitable for use with the "Baustangen", with adaptor it works with the 3-piece "Drahtgabelstangen"... Now the hunt is on for any evidence of a surviving "Drahtgabelzwischenteil"! regards, Funksammler 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tornfuté Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 Val you are right , i register the picture on a bunkerforum but had thought it was german , in fact it’s russian , i make mistake and i learn everyday. when reading about bunker R618 , where they are lot of antennas i read that the festungantenna is stowed in a wooden box , and that for emergency use somebody has to go on toproof for removing antenna protection like FS said in case of attack it’s not the best job . They are still shadows in this subject but it become more easy to understand how the antenna works . i have seen a picture of a steel cabinet , near antenna niche , i guess it’s used for stowage , but which one? Antenna, cables , radio like lo1uk35? FS i had seen a special bag where there were 4 rods , made in bakelite around 30 mm diameter, with bayonet lug , it was for owner and me unknow , may be it was bunkerstange? No picture as it was long time ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
val Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 1 hour ago, Funksammler said: Now the hunt is on for any evidence of a surviving "Drahtgabelzwischenteil"! From the sketch i see that the antenna mount has down there some tube with bayonet connection? @Funksammler - can you show your antenna mount end more closely (without that telephone pole) - your ends with rollers and their connection ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
val Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 I haven't gone through the whole following thread, but there's some bunker antenna setup related photos. https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=60961 For example page 16: https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=60961&start=225 Add those images to this thread, @Funksammler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisMAg2 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 (edited) 15 hours ago, Funksammler said: The sketch of the Antenne base (similar to the one in D1790-1) is worth a second look: Looking at this, I am starting to realise that the "Drahtgabelzwischenteil" is actually an adaptor that connects to the bottom of the "Führungsschlitten" (the line pointing to it should have been drawn slightly higher, it is actually pointing at the top of linesman pole). It is clearly drawn protruding further down from the bottom of the antenna guide than on my actual example: This protrusion can also be recognised on the overview sketch: This is now starting to make sense: without adaptor the guide is suitable for use with the "Baustangen", with adaptor it works with the 3-piece "Drahtgabelstangen"... Now the hunt is on for any evidence of a surviving "Drahtgabelzwischenteil"! regards, Funksammler @Funksammler, in case you have not noticed yet, Val's last post with the links has the reason/ explanation why your little sign seems to have a grammer anomaly: Your repainting/ reconstruction of the sign is lacking the "dot" after the number/ digit "2". The dot indicates the numerical order (as in the second Baustange) and not the amount (as in how many in total -> no dot there). Regards, Christian M. Aguilar Edited March 6, 2019 by ChrisMAg2 edit typos 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisMAg2 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 (edited) On 05/03/2019 at 02:20, Funksammler said: Even though the manual mentions "Drahtgabelstange", the standard 3 piece linesman poles are too thin while the two piece linesman pole is too large. The "Bausstangen", even though they are pointy, fit snugly and securely into the antenna support. My pictures shows one of the "Baustangen" with its point inserted into the base. Even though my instruction plate was in very poor condition and was poorly overpainted , the original text clearly mentioned "Baustange". (I am not sure why they used "Stange" instead of the plural "Stangen", must be old German...). There is a hole in the side of the antenna base for a spring fastener, but it does not fit any of the poles I have. ... I am very sorry, but my comment earlier is actualy referrring to this quote. So again: Funksammler, in case you have not noticed yet, Val's last post with the links has the reason/ explanation why your little sign seems to have a grammer anomaly: Your repainting/ reconstruction of the sign is lacking a "dot" after the number/ digit "2". The dot indicates the numerical order (as in the second Baustange) and not the amount (as in how many in total -> no dot there). Regards, Christian M. Aguilar Edited March 6, 2019 by ChrisMAg2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funksammler Posted March 6, 2019 Author Share Posted March 6, 2019 7 hours ago, ChrisMAg2 said: I am very sorry, but my comment earlier is actualy referrring to this quote. So again: Funksammler, in case you have not noticed yet, Val's last post with the links has the reason/ explanation why your little sign seems to have a grammer anomaly: Your repainting/ reconstruction of the sign is lacking a "dot" after the number/ digit "2". The dot indicates the numerical order (as in the second Baustange) and not the amount (as in how many in total -> no dot there). Regards, Christian M. Aguilar That makes sense, thanks for pointing that out. Also interesting on the drawing is the comment: "Kugelschnäpper der obere Baustange muß in die Bohrung des Führungstuckes eingerastet sein", while the instruction plate mentions "Festungsantennestange". There are a hole and a slot in the bottom of the guide to for a locking mechanism. Standard "Baustangen" lack this mechanism, so the drawing seems to suggest that there was a type of "Baustange" with a locking mechanism called the "Festungsantennestange". So now we have three different types of poles mentioned for use with the Festungsantenne: Drahtgabelstangen (with a "Zwischenstück"), Baustangen and Festungsantennestangen... regards, Funksammler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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