Opinions on this tunic. I am thinking of buying it but would like some help on original or not.

[Richard Auld]

Hans,

believe it or not they even coping buttons now with maker marks. I might have a couple some where and I will add here when I find them again. I was told it was for the re enactor market.

Rich

[edteach]

I get that there are fakes and have been for years. This is why I stay away from SS items. Unless I am paying for a fake and I think it may be real I would not touch any SS item for sale. I am not trying to deny anything but I also don't want people who are just negative or like to run down things for what ever reason. I once had a RK made by S&L and it was considered original by Shea and Neiman, But it was known that that cross dies survived the war and if you had one and it had a defect crack in this place it was post war and if it was here it was pre end of war. I decided to sell while it was still considered original. Maybe it was but its too much money to lose if it goes into the doubtful bin.  I am not trying to disagree with anyone but I have several good collectors who all say its an original tunic along with Shea, and a few who think that its possible that the eagle and maybe the collar tabs are reapplied. One or two that are not in with the whole thing. But the ones who like the the tunic are long time collectors and they can not be ignored either. I can put up most anything for review and someone will not like it. If I were to only go with neg views I would collect nothing. So its hard not really knowing people to weed out those who are just asshats and those who are knowledgeable.  I bought the Tunic but I will return it if its seen as a fake. If its an original tunic and the eagle and collar tabs are original but thought to be replaced at some point I am OK with that also. One collector said since the tunic was AOK to him and that there were no signs of a reapplication of the tabs or eagle he felt it was all OK.  I am curious to see when I get it what the inside looks like and the back of the buttons. Some detailed pictures may help you guys on a more detailed opinion of this good or bad.

[Richard Auld]

Ed, 

you have asked a question, I have given you my concerns, which coincidently match Shea? 

I am not running it down, I am trying to be constructive in the criticism, not just say fake?

The problem is this hobby is like drugs and everyone wants to believe their item is correct.

You can learn something new in this hobby every day if you look.

With tunics/headgear, near all prisoners lost the badging and often rank badges as a matter of course through De-Nazification process and from Ex German PWs I have spoken to, they often swapped their now no longer required stuff for a few packets of 'smokes'?

It is my default setting that I consider all Head gear and tunics to be rebadged until proven otherwise.

The stuff that survived untouched was left at home and tends to be walking out uniforms.

Yes that is a generalization, yes there are always exceptions, we can't know the entire circumstances of any item but like I say I am suspicious before everything else.

If the jacket above is correct then what I would check is the wear on the insignia matches the wear on the jacket, I don't like the look of the eagle in particular but also the shoulder board is splitting along its length. I think it could be completely rebadged.

If in the end you are happy with it then that is your choice and all that matters, you don't have to please anyone else?

Rich

[Richard Auld]

Ed, I am off the road at the moment with a broken foot, when it is better I will visit a new acquaintance, he has already said I can photograph his fathers AK jacket (not for sale). His father was a prisoner in the US and came home in the jacket, It is stunning and you will be able to see what an un-messed with item really looks like.  I promise to do that but it will be probably January. I would have had pictures now but my bloody phone was dead and the visit was unrelated so I did not know he was going to pull this out the wardrobe. Something positive for you to look forward to.

Best

Rich

[hanswolf1224]

there is an old saying in the collecting community when an item is said to be questionable and the buyer was told by other collectors it is fake, played with or what ever and the buyer is on a one track thinking pattern-------- "are you trying to convince us or convince yourself". 

now as for Mr. Shea. years ago at a show i went to monthly,  dealers there  who traveled to many of the large well known shows around the states mentioned Mr. Shea as passing off fakes as real because he couldn't restock his tables with the real deal. i have been in this collecting field for over 50 years and have seen all sorts of dishonesty and lies and in many cases the buyer doesn't find out he bought a fake for years down the road then ofcourse you cant do anything about it.

[edteach]

16 minutes ago, hanswolf1224 said:

there is an old saying in the collecting community when an item is said to be questionable and the buyer was told by other collectors it is fake, played with or what ever and the buyer is on a one track thinking pattern-------- "are you trying to convince us or convince yourself". 

now as for Mr. Shea. years ago at a show i went to monthly,  dealers there  who traveled to many of the large well known shows around the states mentioned Mr. Shea as passing off fakes as real because he couldn't restock his tables with the real deal. i have been in this collecting field for over 50 years and have seen all sorts of dishonesty and lies and in many cases the buyer doesn't find out he bought a fake for years down the road then ofcourse you cant do anything about it.

I have not one bit of issue if this is in deed fake. My issue is I have some very old and knowledgeable collectors saying its OK, and others saying its OK but may have had the emblems reapplied. I had a very small amount of its not real posted. So if its fake its fake, if its real but has had the emblems reapplied fine if its real its real. The amount of different opinions on this is driving me nuts. I am of a mind to just send it back after I take pictures of the button back and the inside and have it looked at one more time. I have seven days to send it back by the rules of the forum. So I will post it ASAP for the final round of opinions. I don't have the money to toss 1400 away on a fake uniform, so I am not going to just say I believe its real if the consensus is its not. The issue is that the consensus now is that its real and may have had the emblems reapplied. The shoulder boards seem to be farther back due to it being a small tunic on a large size manikin. I can take pictures of it once I get it to see which is the case. If this is a suspect tunic I would rather wait and get one that has less issues with. But so far no one has put anything forward that this is a fake tunic. Its too clean, I get it but that is not evidence of its originality. the SBs are too far back, well lets see when I get it and take pictures off the mannequin, The emblems are not original to the uniform, well if the Tunic is original and the emblems are original I am not sure that really bothers me. The Tunic I am buying this one to replace that I sold in the 08 crash, I had taken off the eagle and put another one in better condition on. The tunic and eagle were both original. That does not bother me as its more common then not.

[Richard Auld]

Ed, this cost me about €130 in swaps (British Mk 6 helmet and a handful of NATO junk)? I can afford it to be wrong at that cost but as it transpired when I got it in the hand it was ok less the condition. I won't add to it it is what it is, some one probably used it post war as a work jacket, hey ho.

It is also messed with but where it differs from yours is as a soldiers tunic it is manufactured by a firm and is easier to analyze?

The issue with yours is if you take all the original insignia away it could have been made yesterday as they were as you know privately made to order.

As I said at the beginning without it in the hand there is no way I would try to call this jacket from the 5 pictures you posted and I would certainly not be putting 2/3 of a months wage into a gamble like that. Those people you trust that are saying that it is original, if they are doing it from those pictures then you have to question what you think they know because as has been established it is not a one looker as they say?

1400 is a lot of money. Do you have some one locally that will be able to look it over for you within the time frame?

 

[edteach]

No I live in North West Arkansas USA. No one I know of that I would trust with this. I want to see the back of the buttons and inside before I send it back. I also want to take close up pictures of it once its in hand to see where the opinions fall.

[hanswolf1224]

ok Edteach- lets all cool it until it arrives and is shown in a different light. after that it is up to the buyer to make the final decision.

[Richard Auld]

Ed,

like Hans said lets see what turns up, I will react as quickly as I can. I want you to do me a favor while we wait and think what you would pay for the eagle, collar tabs and boards separate (all of them being European theatre at that)? Then what you would pay for a tunic without badges. It would come in way under 1400 so if you are prepared to badge up a jacket yourself then perhaps that is food for thought?

Rich

Edited December 19, 2021 by Richard Auld

[edteach]

2 hours ago, Richard Auld said:

Ed,

like Hans said lets see what turns up, I will react as quickly as I can. I want you to do me a favor while we wait and think what you would pay for the eagle, collar tabs and boards separate (all of them being European theatre at that)? Then what you would pay for a tunic without badges. It would come in way under 1400 so if you are prepared to badge up a jacket yourself then perhaps that is food for thought?

Rich

No that is not what I was saying. I was saying if the Tunic is real and the eagle, tabs and boards are real but some or maybe even all were applied after the war I don't think I have an issue with that. The tracking said it hit the USA yesterday so by end of next week I should have it in hand. I need to move on it some what fast either way. There is a seven day return on it. The seller has not expressly said he would take it back but the rules on WAF is seven days. If the seller refuses at that point I can go to the forum and see if they can help.

[hanswolf1224]

listen----------- i dont understand your way of thinking. you say if the insignia was applied after the war it is ok??? if that is the case the item is fake and played with. to a collector that is a no go. if you paid a good amount of money for that then you got taken. ORIGINAL is the word in collecting. 

[Davejb]

On 17/12/2021 at 00:15, edteach said:

Are you saying that the opinions here are not educated? I don't think that only thread bear cloth items are real third Reich. That does not make any sense. Fakers can put rust on metal, wear cloth ect. I see antique signs all the time porcelain on steel with chemical rust on it and damage to make it more been there. There can be many reasons why its clean. Its not wool so no moth damage. The owner may not have been in battle. or had an office job or any number of things. I don't believe mint is the enemy of original at all. That is just a lazy way to ID something. Is it clean, well its fake.

I am not saying that at all, what we did was to try and help you and give you an honest opinion and hope that you were not being fooled. Rich had doubt , and he is from Germany and a good eye for all things , I have been an avid militara buff for 50 years and had some very good items that you will never see again and when an item like this is posted and in mint condition and you see something that  you feel might not be right, you have to wonder, and as we have said we hope its ok

mething

[Davejb]

Ok , lets wind this down for now, Ed will post this item when he gets it and we can see much more plus the inside,where the markings will give us a better look as well. It will be up to him to make any decision as to keep or return, we can only advise in what we see

[edteach]

4 hours ago, hanswolf1224 said:

listen----------- i dont understand your way of thinking. you say if the insignia was applied after the war it is ok??? if that is the case the item is fake and played with. to a collector that is a no go. if you paid a good amount of money for that then you got taken. ORIGINAL is the word in collecting. 

I am not saying the emblems are applied during, after the war or at manufacture. What I am saying is if the tunic is real, and the emblems are real, I have no issue with that. It should reflect in the price but to find a tunic that has its original emblems well you will never know. If it was done sloppily or in some way that you can tell fine. But I would bet tomorrows house payment that no one and I mean no one can catch all the reapplied emblems. Since most were taken off during denazification I bet a vast majority of them have been reapplied and or other ones original and maybe even fake applied. 

I am not going to get into the weeds of if its not original as it was from the factory its fake. That is just not true at all. I agree there are some collectors who feel this way but its a load of bunk IMO. It may not be the grade you or they want to collect and that is fine but its not fake. How many US guns because we did not do as the Germans did serialize every part have had parts interchanged and you can not know if it came from the factory like that or not.  I am also a gun collector so I know full well that you can tell if an O3a3 that has a Remington barrel and receiver has or does not have a Remington bolt ect. But you can not tell if a gun is as it came from the factory or not unless you have parts that are made a different way such as in the O3 a Smith Corona bolt or a Remington bolt. Many were cleaned and refurbished in the field so does that make it a fake? Absolutely not.

So by your logic say some soldier German took off his emblems to keep the US and other allies from cutting them off for destruction of for a souvenir. He puts them in his pocket or he gets new ones after the war that are original and sews them on. Does that make the thing fake. Not in any stretch of the imagination. A fake by Websters def. is not genuine, a counterfeit. If all the parts are original war time issue, and someone somewhere put them together its not a fake. If you can tell the eagle or other emblems were applied later as there is sewing discrepancies then its put together original just like a dagger made of parts. Is a parts dagger a fake? Not at all. It may be not worth as much as a parts dagger but its still a war time item. If its not in your collecting area to buy these things that is fine, but its hardly a fake.

Lets take a gun and someone expertly puts on a PPK SS runes. Is the gun a fake? No but that it has been altered to be  make it a more rare gun and more valuable its worth less now because its been altered in a way that can not really be undone. Sewing on real war time emblems to a war time tunic is harkly altering it so it could not be all taken off and left to stand alone. 

The P08 is a gun that has most all its parts and some screws numbed to the gun. But I have been around collectors of these for years, like 30 years, an I know is they have an all matching gun but for say the hold open hand or a firing pin say, they will look for P08 part that has the last two digits which all small parts only had the last two digits on, and put it in their gun. Now if they don't tell someone its all matching. Some collectors I know would say it was done if they sold it but now that collector dies and his children or wife gets it and sells it and its all matching as far as they know. Can you tell? Most likely not. An original part with the right last two digits on it that is in about the same condition as your gun and saying that the style of the numbers are not radically different you are not going to know. Even if someone who has been around P08s for many years has a suspicionyou will only start an argument of those who think its good and those who think its bad.

So I really don't agree with you on your point. Unless I am not reading what you said correctly.

[Richard Auld]

Ed,

I get where you are coming from, a bit. Another example would be the humble German mess tin, they rarely have a matching top and bottom mainly because of how they were used, some bloke took your tin and brought your snap back in it. Sometimes you got a different tin back? I have a couple of hundred of these and only 4 or 5 are 'natural' matching tins. I could go through them all and make many more matching sets from the more common manufacturers and years but that like your P08's is not how I got them and to do that would be a lie? I am I suppose a purist and I understand your point of view with regards the sum of the parts. Where it differs from your P08 and my mess tins is that nobody was making them in their local shop, it was a group of companies with machine tools and identifiable traits? Take away your original insignia and you will have a never ending war of opinion on originality because it is made buy a unique tailor with his own style and traits, you will never have satisfaction from one camp or the other? You can pay someone to make a ruling for you but what happens if that is in the future questioned by some other data? For me the risk is too big, I definitely don't know everything and would never profess to but I appreciate the value of my hard earned cash and I have patience, I can wait if I want something.

Rich

[edteach]

Rich, this is my thinking also. If I ever sell, I want a tunic that everyone likes. Not one where most like it but some don't. Makes it harder to sell. I did have a dealer say they would buy the summer tunic, but still everyone seems to like the second one. I believe I will ship the first one back but I still want to take some pictures of it and post it.

[Richard Auld]

Good for other collectors if you document this sale/fail?

I wish you good luck in the future but please just take a tactical pause if you are not 100% sure and even if you are a 1000% just take your time.

It is not as black and white as weapons with stamps etc.

Is that a fair statement. I think so?

Happy Hunting!

Rich!

Edited December 21, 2021 by Richard Auld

[edteach]

Cloth items are very hard. I just wanted a nice representative Tunic.

[edteach]

OK, I got the Tunic today. Some things to my untrained eye I don't like, The eagle looks bad to me. The swastika is not symmetrical. I could very well be wrong so correct me if so. The color tabs look good to me but may have been applied after the war. I put a black light on the whole thing and nothing fluoresces, but for small pin head size spots all over the coat. No markings at all on the back of the buttons. Any pictures needed let me know. The gold shoulder board star looks like its new, The thread on the eagle is a gray silver thread not bullion.

[hanswolf1224]

i don't like it. no makers stamp inside, eagle and swaz look cheap. send it back. to me if this came from a long time dealer/collector it is obvious he is selling junk. here is a word of warning, German stuff is and always was in demand. the market is flooded with fraud and deceit where the main motive is MONEY. you have those out there that don't care who they hurt and i will say even the big time dealers will take you for what you are worth. before you buy ask questions and save yourself heartache later on. this is my opinion so wait till others chime in.

[edteach]

I am getting the same negative thoughts on other sites as well. I notified the seller I am returning it.

[Richard Auld]

I notice on both sides inside the button flap that the edge of the material role has been left on, that is not good practice from a professional tailor that would be charging good money even back then, even today they would cut that off and give it a proper edge? The reverse of the collar lacks the typical zig zag stitching but cheaper or field made stuff is found without that. Yes the rank pip is the wrong colour, should be silver? Slot for dagger hanger but no integral hanger, if you are going to make the slot then most I have seen have the clip and hanger which stowed in the pocket? For me you can argue for and against all day long but again with just the pictures we have seen it would be a brave call to say it is 100% original jacket. Please tell us what the consensus is across all of the people you have asked.

Best

Rich

[Richard Auld]

I would too! The other jacket is nicer in every way.

Best

Rich

[edteach]

I am getting neg on the WAF forum but for the seller who posted positive about it. I think it would be a hard sell If I had to sell. Not that it matters a lot but Bill Shea did not like it and was not interested in buying it.

Edited December 23, 2021 by edteach