At the Auctions..

[Norrie]

Hi guys, went to the auctions this afternoon to look at what i thought was  bayonet....it wasnt, but then the wife spotted this...:) I am almost certain it's a repro, but left a bid on it anyway..just ion the reserve....

I only managed to take a couple of pics..bad ones too.....and had a good look, the liner looks new, tho has some wear...cant see any marks on it., but the blue/grey paint is pretty thick on it, tried to check the decal out too, but the eyes aint what they were...

 

The auctioneer told me the vendor says it's an original...but I don't think so, but hey, what do i know?? LOL...:)

 

Thoughts??

 

Thanks in advance.

[Davejb]

Your right, theres not much detail there, if you could have shown the liner that might have helped and you say theres no interior markings, even on the rear flare???.Its purporting to be a M42 lufty??? with camo. Any camo helmet with decal/s commands quite a high price, but it might help if we know what the reserve is, but when taking pictures of helmets its a must to get as much detail as possible, especially straight on shots of the front, sides, decals, interior and liner

[Norrie]

46 minutes ago, Davejb said:

Your right, theres not much detail there, if you could have shown the liner that might have helped and you say theres no interior markings, even on the rear flare???.Its purporting to be a M42 lufty??? with camo. Any camo helmet with decal/s commands quite a high price, but it might help if we know what the reserve is, but when taking pictures of helmets its a must to get as much detail as possible, especially straight on shots of the front, sides, decals, interior and liner

Hi @Davejb, I didnt like taking the pictures in full view of the staff at the auctions and rushed them........their was one tiny wee mark on the inside of the  rear flare, but it looked to be "ground" off, tho, you could still feel the "mark" on the outside of the hat.It was a squarish sort of shape about 1cm sq.  The liner looked to be new....ish, the leather was supple, and it was still a sandy colour. The chinstrap did def have some wear...and i forgot to look at the end of the strap...I know their are stamps on them. 

 

Reserve was £50, but again, the auctioneer said the vendor stated that it was original....I'm thinking maybe a battle re enators hat...:)

[Norrie]

Just home from the auction, got that hat for £50...really quite happy, even for a repro...:)

 

@Davejb @Bil4338  @DAK D and finally @Lenny......More pics, taken by my new fone, I hate this Samsung, its real pants..hope my Experia doesnt take long being repaired....:(

 

 

[DAK D]

Hi @Norrie,

For £50 you should be happy, but I believe you were right to suspect it was a bad one, having said that the shell is probably original?

D

Edited June 29, 2016 by DAK D

[Norrie]

52 minutes ago, DAK D said:

Hi @Norrie,

For £50 you should be happy, but I believe you were right to suspect it was a bad one, having said that the shell is probably original?

D

Thanks @DAK D, if it is an original shell, then I am over the moon with it....as last night, I paid £60 for a repro hat from Epic....LOL.....:)

[DAK D]

Hi @Norrie,

If you can find the factory markings in the shell, that would really help confirm what you have? 

D

 

[Norrie]

26 minutes ago, DAK D said:

Hi @Norrie,

If you can find the factory markings in the shell, that would really help confirm what you have? 

D

 

Have had a look @DAK D, but the paint is quite thick even in the hat interior, any ideas where they would be....around the chinstrap clip maybe??

 

All I can find is a ground down area near the rear of the hat, on the inside.

 

 

[Davejb]

I would agree with D, it does look to be an original shell, not too happy with the decal,and the liners a nonsense, try and make out that lot no/ in the rear, the camo is probably a repaint, but for 50 quid its a bargain, as for chin straps ,they are not all marked so thats no indication of being fake or real

[Norrie]

13 minutes ago, Davejb said:

I would agree with D, it does look to be an original shell, not too happy with the decal,and the liners a nonsense, try and make out that lot no/ in the rear, the camo is probably a repaint, but for 50 quid its a bargain, as for chin straps ,they are not all marked so thats no indication of being fake or real

@Davejb, @DAK D, just had a look under an LED light, and their are def signs of green paint on the scratched/chipped areas...:)

 

Re the lot number, it's all almost gone, all I can make out looks like either a letter "S" or a number "5"....

 

Had another look  under a glass, it's a letter "S" in old font....to the bottom right of the little square thats been ground...

 

BTW, The liner still smells of leather...good work chaps...:)

Edited June 29, 2016 by Norrie

[DAK D]

Hi @Norrie,

That's interesting, but not conclusive unfortunately. The lot number is at the back of the shell and the factory/Size marking is on the side, please see attached images.

D

[Norrie]

Nope, still cant see anything...I'm taking it with me this weekend when @Fred Karno's Army and i meet up at the Solway Museum....mibbes his younger eyes can pick something out...:)

It's def a re paint, as their are patches of paint under the Blue Grey, plus, I've noticed the paint on the "rubbed" areas of the decal is a brighter blue, I'm thinking the repaint has covered up the numbers, but why would they grind the lot numbers out?? to hide the fact it's a post war hat ?...  @Bil4338 is of that opinion, and TBH, I am getting there too....LOL.....:) No matter, its a good hat on the shelf, and I never thought it was an original...:)

 

I am however loving all this detective work...you guys know yer stuff....:)

[Davejb]

There are some M42s that had both the lot no/ and the maker and size all on the rear flare, The liners on German helmets are completely different to the one you have, normally they have 8-9 fingers, each finger has round holes punched into the leather acting as vent holes, 5 holes configured as two at the bottom ,one in the middle and two at the top, not including the drawstring hole at the end of the finger, liners should have round leather "discs" on the rear where the drawstring is pushed through, these act as a strengthener so the string does,nt cut through the finger. the leather is attached to a steel band(inner band by a number of small flat alloy pins).  that has  lengths of sprung steel attached , These lengths are positioned into the outer band in such a way that the whole inner band and liner could be removed and replaced, without removing the outer band, but this is very difficult to do so to make things easier the entire outer and inner bands are usually removed as a whole by opening the three external pins, two at either side and one at the rear of the helmet. To get an idea of this set up you can either buy a book on German helmets or google German helmet Liners,. You will notice the difference instantly. Just to make things easier, could you start referring to German helmets as helmets rather than hats, theres a big difference

[Norrie]

Hi @Davejb, Some great information their, thank you...I found a cracking website about German helmets...and how to differentiate repros from the genuine article...I was looking at it till the wee small hours this morning...:)

It seems calling helmets hats, is akin to calling bullets...heads...which really does my head in ..(I reload my own ammunition).....so, yep, will call them helmets from here on in....

 

I'm looking now for a book on Helmets on the Amazon website......I have no idea of what to get...any recommendations ??

[DAK D]

Hi @Norrie,

The Schiffer series on helmets are great books!

Credit for photos goes to Schiffer publications.

Here's a link to the official Schiffer page, but look around and you will find cheaper copies of the books.

https://www.schifferbooks.com/search/results.html?search_in_description=1&search-option=&keyword=helmets&x=30&y=24

D

[Norrie]

Thanks @DAK D, I had a look at them on Amazon...geez, they are some price...over £100 a time!!!! I'll watch and wait on the bay of evil I think...see if a cheaper copy comes up...:)

 

In the meantime, I bought this little Osprey book to keep me going...they aint the best on the planet, I already have a few copies on WW2 aircraft....but, will do for now...)

 

[Bil4338]

OK Norrie, think you've misunderstood what I told you mate.your helmet (def. not a hat!!!.. bit annoying that to us collectors...) is an original WW2 period shell.the paintwork, decal, liner and chinstrap are all postwar additions to complete the helmet.its probably been done by or for a re-enactor or to fill a space.

having said that, as I already stated, you've got an original shell for a decent price....plus some parts.you'll definitely benefit greatly though, by spending a LOT of time doing some proper research before doling out hard earned cash on militaria and building up some basic knowledge because believe me, it won't be long before you get burned.we've all been there and I'm just trying to give you some good advice so please don't take it the wrong way.enjoy the hobby but be wary too!

[Norrie]

16 hours ago, Bil4338 said:

OK Norrie, think you've misunderstood what I told you mate.your helmet (def. not a hat!!!.. bit annoying that to us collectors...) is an original WW2 period shell.the paintwork, decal, liner and chinstrap are all postwar additions to complete the helmet.its probably been done by or for a re-enactor or to fill a space.

having said that, as I already stated, you've got an original shell for a decent price....plus some parts.you'll definitely benefit greatly though, by spending a LOT of time doing some proper research before doling out hard earned cash on militaria and building up some basic knowledge because believe me, it won't be long before you get burned.we've all been there and I'm just trying to give you some good advice so please don't take it the wrong way.enjoy the hobby but be wary too!

Hi Bill, Nooo mate, I def aint taking your advice and info the wrong way....my comments maybe came out the wrong way....:) 

I appreciate and love the stuff you guys are telling me...BUT, as I said earlier, I hope I wont get burnt, unless it's for £50 or so...I'm def on a budget and if SHE finds out what I've spent already ( like with my rifles) she will do me in....LOL...so, no danger of me losing loads of money....(hopefully)...:) 

I think I landed really lucky with that helmet ....it's now got pride of place on the shelf...so much so, I've just bought 10 manniquin heads for the "better" helmets I have...

Even if it was a full repro, I still like that hat, tho it is tiny....I did'nt realise heads were so small back in the day, then remembered that RAF cap we saw  at East Fortune, it looked like it was for a young boy, bit like this helmet...:)

 

I've bought a second book on WW2 German gear, so, plenty to swot up on...:)

 

I now appreciate the use of the "hats" word, as I reload my own ammunition for hunting,, and get sick to the back teeth of folks calling bullets , heads!!! Similar thing I'm assuming...:)

[Bil4338]

Yep, a helmet is a form of protective headgear made from steel or composite fibre, quite different to a hat, which is a fashionable item made of cloth!