SS camo covers

[ahrtal]

I have always wondered why fakers used brass rocker clips on their fakes.  It seems that that would be a clear give away and defeat the purpose of their scam.  Maybe they copied the fake from extant originals with tombak rocker clips.  Before he died, I emailed Mike Beavers about this, and he said that there were other metals used in addition to the steel and aluminum clips.  This always comes up against a brick wall when discussing the case with experts, and when did these experts become so well-versed on the subject?  Or perhaps, because it is written in a book, it becomes infallible.  But it comes back to the original premise: might the first repros have been based on originals that had tombak (looks a lot like brass) fittings, as other metals were used.  I have never actually seen one of the offending examples, but would like to.

The brick wall comes in the form of the experts themselves.  Unless one is "in the club", one can find virtually nothing about the history of the repros.  Advanced collectors and experts do not divulge any information they might have on construction differences, what to look for, other than no brass rocker clips, and they dismiss many with the prerequisite attributes as fakes (wrong size rivet, wrong shaped top to clip, wrong cloth, et. al.) with no concrete explanation, other than " I can't tell you, or the fakes will become better."  If you are unknown to them or don't pay your $25 annually, and even then, the experts won't divulge their knowledge of the grail, even by email.  Naturally, if one is one of the FB collectors, one is immediately dismissed as having no knowledge of anything other than paintball replicas, servivalist clothing and the like.  I understand the logic,but the genie is already out of the lamp.

I would like to find someone who has been collecting from back in the 1960s with knowledge of these things to explain why the brass rocker clips in the first place if they are totally wrong?  When did the first good fakes start appearing?  Unfortunately, Mike Beavers is gone, and his knowledge with him.  Did he impart any of his unwritten information to anyone?  OK.  Maybe this will stimulate some conversation.

[Davejb]

I agree with you re this "elitist" attitude of the so called "experts", I do understand why no-one wants to give the fakers out there any clues to help enhance there trade when on an open group or on FB, but I see no reason why a personal E-mail will do any harm, especially to another dedicated collector, to me its as if these people feel that they should be the only ones privileged to know certain facts and that should anyone get "burned" when making a fake purchase ,then thats their hard luck. I think that its an experienced collectors duty to ensure that fakers are denied being able to profit from a sale and what better way than to expose the flaws that exist in fakes, If everyone knew what to look for, fakes would be much harder to fool less experienced collectors  and there may well be less fakers out there in time, and this damn hobby of ours could be a much more enjoyable pastime, rather than wading through hundreds of fakes in order to get to the real deal. But lets not forget that in some cases these "experts" may well be the perpetrators of such fakes , and profit from them as recently proved 

[Manu Della Valle]

"Experten" don't want to divulge information as to call a fake from the real thing because A) more often than not they're a bunch of assholes linked to forgers (respecially at the Shitehouse.aka the WAF) and because, B ) more often than not they're forger themselves,else they'd have no problem whatsoever to warn other collectors!

Edited July 23, 2016 by Manu Della Valle
fecking typos due tothe fecking italian keyboard

[ahrtal]

I am going to submit for consideration this cover I bought in 1972 at an OVMS show.  The time frame in which i bought it, preceded the age of churned out repros.  It is in the same condition,now, as when I got it.  The fading was there.  The material is correct (not Zeltbahn material), the camo pattern is genuine, the construction is correct, but the rocker clips are "incorrect" in material but extremely well made and blued.  As I said before, other metals were used to an extent.

[Davejb]

Not being an SS fabric collector, I would cautiously say that this could well be a goodun, albeit it has blued "brass" rockers, to my eye the stitching is neat and well uniformed, the colours are looking correct and well applied, the fabric looks correct, the rocker mounts are well applied, the sections of fabric look correct,and the fact that this was acquired in "72" when fakes were not well made per se , the only suspect is the rockers, which actually look well done, they are not rough in design and appear to have been part of the whole cover from the start. Of course they could have been replaced post war, or even during. Perhaps the alloy ones were damaged and instead of getting a new cover the soldier had them made from brass or what appears to be brass, either he did this himself or had an engineer do it, I am thinking that the cover is real with perhaps an add on. As these are becoming rarer than rocking horse do da, i think its ok, even the fakes nowdays cant really match the quality this one has 

[Bil4338]

I'm in complete agreement with Davejb here.Steve's cover looks 100% good to me. The metal plates and hooks look to have plenty of genuine patina gained over decades, slight wear consistent with use and nice fading to both the fabric and thread.all looks to be factory manufactured by time served seamstresses as opposed to some flyby-night replicator.given also the timeframe when purchased that's another good aspect for me.

[ahrtal]

I had one guy contact me about another item, and when I told him about this one, sight unseen, he said it had to be fake because of the rockers.  I suggested they might be tombak, but he poo-pooed that as I was not a metallurgist, and he was,  Sometimes the "truth" ain't. 

[Davejb]

Yep typical response from someone who would rather miss out on a deal than research a little deeper and look into possibilities

[Manu Della Valle]

Typical response from a WAFite!

[ahrtal]

Yeah, he was a WAFite.  I think they created the myth of what is real and what isn't.

[Bil4338]

One of the reasons I won't even entertain the notion of (re)joining WAF or any of its cousins, just too many 'experts' only interested in themselves, their reputations, businesses and opinions.

[Manu Della Valle]

On 24/7/2016 at 19:15, ahrtal said:

Yeah, he was a WAFite.  I think they created the myth of what is real and what isn't.

A BIGAMEN to that!

[Manu Della Valle]

On 24/7/2016 at 21:44, Bil4338 said:

One of the reasons I won't even entertain the notion of (re)joining WAF or any of its cousins, just too many 'experts' only interested in themselves, their reputations, businesses and opinions.

Many "Experten" there have formed a sort of coalition aimed at fooling noobs,less-informed or WAF-addicted losers into believing that everything they say is carved in stone!
From time to time nice items surface on the E-Stand but you've got to know your schucks and DON'T let the linked discussion threads fool you!
Rumors have it that there are quite a few forgers and felons amongst the members and Seba Bianchi (who's said to have been charged with misdemeanors and petty offences) has had an argument with the Admin of a "couisin forum" when he called him "convicted felon"...or the other way round!
Long story short....I'm glad I've started collecting MANY YEARS ago!
Oh...one of the members there,one Paolo Marzetti,once sold a pair of 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000% fake LW long tropical trousers to a friend and refused to take them back or to refund him when I pointed out to this poor guy because "I'm Paolo Marzetti and if I say they're good...THEY'RE GOOD!",Needless to say...he's one of the "Experten" there as far as helmets are concerned.....
Ditto for Gerard Stezelberger of the now semi-defunct Relic Hunter's fame;he was there to ask for appraisal,advice and to write the captions to the items he listed,he tried to sell a pair of unifinished gebirgsjaeger boots to a friend describing them as "Last-Ditch (they LOVE the term!),hybrid combat boots",and since WW2 German Military Footwear has been my thing for decades I advised my friend against purchasing them and when Stezelberger sold them to yet another member I contacted him and he returned the boots for a full refund...that put me on the black-book but even with the Hubble Telescope I cannot see the big f u c k  I give

[Bil4338]

Paolo Marzetti was (maybe still is) a member of the old military helmet collectors club on yahoo.his appraisals were always abrupt and to the point, perhaps he's a bit reticent because of bad trades in the past.who knows?

I never had any dealings with him other than the occasional email or club message, and certainly no trades.I thought he only dealt with helmets as he once had a collection of around 8,000.he's since culled that to a mere 3,000 as he once said.

.....don't think he's on here, probably a tad toooooo small for a luminary such as him....

[ahrtal]

He was also on the Military Helmet Collectors Forum, also, but not really that active.  It is still alive on Yahoo.  Gregg is keeping it alive.  Seems it concentrates on British Commonwealth helmets now.  I shared my Austrian Gardebatailon acquisition, and got bupkis.

[Manu Della Valle]

11 hours ago, ahrtal said:

He was also on the Military Helmet Collectors Forum, also, but not really that active.  It is still alive on Yahoo.  Gregg is keeping it alive.  Seems it concentrates on British Commonwealth helmets now.  I shared my Austrian Gardebatailon acquisition, and got bupkis.

What else would you expect from that lot?Some form of appraisal perhaps?

[Manu Della Valle]

14 hours ago, Bil4338 said:

Paolo Marzetti was (maybe still is) a member of the old military helmet collectors club on yahoo.his appraisals were always abrupt and to the point, perhaps he's a bit reticent because of bad trades in the past.who knows?

I never had any dealings with him other than the occasional email or club message, and certainly no trades.I thought he only dealt with helmets as he once had a collection of around 8,000.he's since culled that to a mere 3,000 as he once said.

.....don't think he's on here, probably a tad toooooo small for a luminary such as him....

He and his son (as a "model") used to publish articles on Italy's "Uniformi & Armi" which was the Italian equivalent to France's "Militaria Magazine"!It was and still is a superp monthly magazine,just like MM!
Two decades ago MM was dragged into a minor scandal tho,when  they started publishing features on "uber rare" WH/WSS/LW uniforms and equipment,which were but high-end fakes made in the Czech Republic,Germany and Gret Britain sold the following month by HSC in Paris,amongst the others!
You could see the ads from a few "reputable sellers" with dozen of small pictures of WSS "chicken wire" helmets,WSS combat tunics,tropical rare items and so on,and all of them were FAKES!
 

[ahrtal]

1 hour ago, Manu Della Valle said:

What else would you expect from that lot?Some form of appraisal perhaps?

No.  I am still a member of that group, but they mostly discuss British Commonwealth helmets, now.  In the past, the group discussed helmets of the world.  I just thought it would be a unique variant of interest.

[Bil4338]

I'm still a member there too, but traffic seems to have slowed to a relative crawl, not much discussion at all.think most of the members are also here, the FB edition, or other FB helmet groups.