Opinions on this tunic. I am thinking of buying it but would like some help on original or not.

[edteach]

I want to buy this tunic. It was offered to me by a collector. It looks good to me but would like some experienced opinions. Thanks for any help.

[Richard Auld]

Hi, welcome, 

is there a tailors label on the inside and are there more pictures of the inside?

Best

Rich

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Richard Auld

[edteach]

Sorry I don't I have bought it and its being shipped.

[hanswolf1224]

a word of caution/ if you can't see the entire item and get opinions about it from those who are good at identifying hold off! a lot of German stuff is faked (not to say tunic is) and it is wise to tread slowly. is there a return policy on this? for an item 70 plus years old it is to clean but, when you get it show it to those who know.

[Davejb]

I am with Rich on this, we need to see the inside, there should be some label or manufacture markings and yes it is very clean for its age

[Richard Auld]

Ed?

here is a link to a mint PZ walking out uniform I bought about 30 years ago,

The problem with 'Officer' stuff is that it was privately made by tailors?

Perhaps you can find some clues on the inside?

I like the cut and workmanship but there is nothing visible to show age, at least mine above the wire eagle is corroded as one would expect. I also had mine looked over before, just to be sure and I know or rather knew a lot of seasoned collectors here in Germany (sadly not all still around), difficult call if you have not got it in the hand? The problem is they are getting better and better all the time. Good Luck!

Rich

[Davejb]

There is another point, to me its those buttons, buttons have a habit of getting worn, its what happens over time, these look as if they have been re done,any one think the same

[Richard Auld]

For me Dave it all looks like a mint condition jacket with minimal to no wear? The denim that these are made of would show immediate fading if washed? When it arrived I would be all over the stitching with a UV light to see if anything looked modified? It is a really hard call from just those pictures as each officers jacket privately made is unique? Since I am not really looking at the new copies I am not in a strong position to comment, I hate cloth in this respect! With regards the buttons, these Trop or warm weather jackets tend to have the removable buttons held with a S shaped spring?

Rich

[Davejb]

You have hit the nail on the head, it was this that was putting me off, It could be a one off, if so good luck to him, but I think a good look inside will help to prove us right or wrong, but in any case i still think its been re worked somehow

[Richard Auld]

I certainly would not have bought it from these few pictures, we can only cross our fingers!

[edteach]

I will post pictures once I get it. I did not buy it off of some unknown web site. I got it form a member from Wehrmacht awards, so I am doubting they would intentionally sell a bad item since I asked if they minded if I put it up for opinions. One opinion said he had that tunic in hand a few years back and it was OK. But I will post more pictures once I get it.

[Richard Auld]

I am afraid to say fraud on WAF is common place.

[edteach]

The Tunic has the dagger hanger system on the inside. I will take pictures of inside when I get it. I doubt its a fake from all the experts I have put it in front of that said it was an original private label tunic WW2 era. But I can return it if its fake. As far as  fraud being common on WAF I doubt that anything to any deg is intentional. I also highly doubt that its common. Any site that has things for sale can get a fake passed for real and I have seen real things that are seen as fake. I have a Luft. Ground assault badge that was once seen as a fake, that is now known as original because of one being in the possession of a vet who got it during the war and its now known to be real. Any seller can have fake things. Are they known to the dealer and or seller? If a pattern starts to emerge than I would say maybe they are lax or corrupt. But to say WAF is rampant with fakes is not true.

[Davejb]

Hi Ed, you say the Tunic has the Dagger system, is this something you have seen, or been told. also when you get the tunic let us see under the arm pits,see if this has wear as it should have, if not, it may be one of to things, the tunic has never been worn or it may have  been re worked somehow , to me this tunic is a mint peace and any one selling it, if real, has lost a very rare item and that is something  that you dont see all that often from a dealer

[Richard Auld]

Ed, read the discussion forum on WAF and you will see a very high number of fraudsters reported? Look alone at how the Champagne decal thing unfolded with as I understand it from the video done recently, old folk posing as veterans and selling them at fairs to dealers to get them into circulation?

You would be very surprised just who is in whos pocket and if you look on there you can find it.

If it is cheap, a couple of hundred, then ok but I doubt that.

What I do find odd is that the eagle is only the embroidered type (mint) and the straight tight machine stitching on it and the collar tabs, more indicative of a higher performance modern sewing machine and they look, like the shoulder boards to have some wear, which not innkeeping with the rest of the jacket?

I hope it is just my natural suspicious nature and good luck again.

[edteach]

Bill Shea said the tunic was original but he would have to have it in hand to know if the eagle was original to the tunic or not.

[Davejb]

With the amount of people you have seen fit to ask I do not understand why you wanted our opinion as well, Bill is a good man , but it seems that he is unsure re the eagle and if there is a doubt in his mind re one item there is a cause in our mind for others, perhaps you would like you ask him if he feels that this item has never been worn, why there is no damage at all and why it is so clean after 70 odd years, bearing in mind that it has no doubt been hand,ed by many over the years and still there is no wear to it, no fraying, etc

 

 

 

 

[edteach]

Bill did not question the Tunic itself. Just the eagle that it may have been applied sometime later than when it was made.

[edteach]

51 minutes ago, Davejb said:

With the amount of people you have seen fit to ask I do not understand why you wanted our opinion as well, Bill is a good man , but it seems that he is unsure re the eagle and if there is a doubt in his mind re one item there is a cause in our mind for others, perhaps you would like you ask him if he feels that this item has never been worn, why there is no damage at all and why it is so clean after 70 odd years, bearing in mind that it has no doubt been hand,ed by many over the years and still there is no wear to it, no fraying, etc

 

 

 

 

Are you saying that the opinions here are not educated? I don't think that only thread bear cloth items are real third Reich. That does not make any sense. Fakers can put rust on metal, wear cloth ect. I see antique signs all the time porcelain on steel with chemical rust on it and damage to make it more been there. There can be many reasons why its clean. Its not wool so no moth damage. The owner may not have been in battle. or had an office job or any number of things. I don't believe mint is the enemy of original at all. That is just a lazy way to ID something. Is it clean, well its fake.

[edteach]

I am going to send it to Bill Shea and have it appraised. He said the Tunic looks good but he needs hands on to know about the other emblems. Its not too bad on something like this and he gives a written letter head as to originality. I have been told by a few collectors that Bill sells fakes. LOL, he has always been good with my dealings.

[hanswolf1224]

what about the buttons?? are they maker marked on the back?? about dealers and think about this- when they sell much of their inventory where do they get more stock from??? where does the stock pile come from?? there is no endless supply. get my drift??? i have heard many stories about dealers. just let your imagination think about it. it just seems that there is an endless supply of German stuff filling empty shelves.

[edteach]

54 minutes ago, hanswolf1224 said:

what about the buttons?? are they maker marked on the back?? about dealers and think about this- when they sell much of their inventory where do they get more stock from??? where does the stock pile come from?? there is no endless supply. get my drift??? i have heard many stories about dealers. just let your imagination think about it. it just seems that there is an endless supply of German stuff filling empty shelves.

I also agree that dealers can buy fake things. I don't think they do so willingly, or at least no most. I will post pictures of the back of the buttons and inside as soon as I get it in hand.

[Davejb]

3 hours ago, edteach said:

Are you saying that the opinions here are not educated? I don't think that only thread bear cloth items are real third Reich. That does not make any sense. Fakers can put rust on metal, wear cloth ect. I see antique signs all the time porcelain on steel with chemical rust on it and damage to make it more been there. There can be many reasons why its clean. Its not wool so no moth damage. The owner may not have been in battle. or had an office job or any number of things. I don't believe mint is the enemy of original at all. That is just a lazy way to ID something. Is it clean, well its fake.

I am not saying that at all, what we did was to try and help you and give you an honest opinion and hope that you were not being fooled. Rich had doubt , and he is from Germany and a good eye for all things , I have been an avid militara buff for 50 years and had some very good items that you will never see again and when an item like this is posted and in mint condition and you see something that  you feel might not be right, you have to wonder, and as we have said we hope its ok

mething

[Richard Auld]

 

[Richard Auld]

If you have not watched these 2 then it is a must. There are 3 but these two are key!

You are asking the wrong people perhaps, Ruptured Duck and Hicks etc pay good money to WAF site owner so that they can pedal their wares to people like you. 

Asking a dealer regardless of his experience is like a drug addict asking what his drug dealer recommends? They have an interest in you only as a customer and source of income.

I believe even Mr Shea was caught out about 8 or 9 years ago where by a German helmet shell was sold but popped up complete with liner on his site. I am really very sorry for you and the future collectors because it is a minefield.

The video above by Hicks gives you an insight into phycology of how it all came about but he has come clean and no doubt hopes to be rehabilitated into the community, with the help of WAF I am sure that will all be forgotten as quickly as possible. I love his Godfearing spin towards the end but I am cynical and believe he has done this as his business has been badly damaged.

I don't say that lightly but if you look at the evidence, it was no knee jerk reaction from him, by amending the contributor names in successive editions of his book, he knew things were wrong and tried to distance himself from the facts? 

This sort of thing is rife in the hobby and in particular on WAF, I don't know who else you are asking for advice but if they are a forum sponsor then beware the advice you get.

Lastly Good luck with future collecting, I hope it is less fraught than this time!

Best Regards

Rich